Speak Out Loud NA

Wednesday, October 05, 2005

Welcome... A New View of Things!

Hello all. Thought I would update things a bit around here and do a little re-decorating. After all, every now and then there's just some clutter that needs to be thrown out.
As well, there comes times when one has to assert control over their environment.
In light of this idea, I found it time to give a new look to the blog. One that is more of a reflection of the collaborative cooperation and growing structural integrity of the systems that have come into operation in our intents to inform the public to the best of our abilities, and support efforts to protect the best interest of the taxpayers and their obligations to the City.
Obviously, the other side of that coin is, what are the City's obligations to the public?
More specifically, what are the paramiters that elected officials are expected to function within to properly represent and serve their constituency?
Where do we draw the line of accountability, and what is deemed as not acceptable, or a conflict of interests? Can Greg Fifer actually be the attorney representing everyone? How many City salaries is the Mayor allowed to collect? How many positions have been blatantly filled by purely political favoritism, and wound up biting the dust? How many are left?
How many lies are unacceptale? How many laws are allowed to be broken? How many times do they think they can tap into the low economics of the people of the inner-city?
This new look represents a new way of looking at things will bring many incidents to light.
Hope you all find it pleasent!
Have a happy... (fill in the blank)

posted by East Ender at 1:35 AM

61 Comments:

  • Anonymity

    People of New Albany may be concerned about Political or economic retribution, harrassment, or even threats to their lives.

    Their are several Whistleblowers in New Albany this City would prefer to supress.

    For these individuals you have earned many others respect for truly standing up for what is right.

    Secure anonymity is critical.

    The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly that the right to anonymous free speech is protected by the First Amendment.

    As the Supreme Court has recognized, the internet offers a new and powerful Democratic Forum in which anyone can become a Voice in their local Cities and Towns. As well as a Voice in local Government.

    So I ask each and everyone, what has some people in New Albany got to hide. Let alone Mayor Garner and the other elected Officials and the local Bandits.

    Thank You
    Laura


    For giving us all.. "Speak Out Loud NA"

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:25 AM, October 05, 2005  

  • Laura

    Just keep fighting the good fight,
    and expose the corruption. And most of all keep informing us taxpayers.

    Great new look

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:39 AM, October 05, 2005  

  • new look , same idiocy and trumped up charges you cant prove ms. oates. Whats your point?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:55 AM, October 05, 2005  

  • People deserve to know what's really going on.

    By Blogger East Ender, at 2:51 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • Looks great! You got our support.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:56 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • Laura----- the new look is great.

    We need more info on this new Stormwater fee that the Mayor is pushing to charge us $3.00 more per month. I hope the City council takes their time and really investigates the process being used.

    I read that the County is doing their plan with $200,000 of their money and NOT CHARGING the County Residents a fee right now.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:05 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • folks its called a federal mandate how are we to pay for it? The money wont rain out of the sky.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:42 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • Just like the State of Indiana is Going to mandate a New Jail.

    Great lookin Blog-Laura

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:59 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • What about $39,000 unpaid sewer bill. Christian Academy.
    Garners kids go there.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:07 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • The $3 "interim" fee is only to start building the pot so they will have $800,000 in 12 months. The "real" fee will most likely be $7-$8 for households.
    The reason the County was able to cover this Mandate by only charging Developers fees is that they were smart enough to not obligate all their EDIT funds and Riverboat proceeds to other projects (read-Scribner).
    They also have put the thing under Planning & Zoning, where it belongs, instead of creating a new 3 member board with salaries.
    There are other differences, but these are just a couple of examples.

    By Blogger East Ender, at 6:16 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • Heat,sewer,water,gas, and now this added fee....When will this end..
    Greedy SOB'S.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:20 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • I heard Garner has called a special meeting on fri, about this fee. What is the hurry to pass this thru Council?
    And how can the County do it for less money? Can someone please explain this.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:25 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • Mr. Mayor

    It is not only what you do,
    But also what you don't do,
    For which you are accountable.

    In my view you have done nothing
    for our family. And nothing for us as taxpayers.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:59 PM, October 05, 2005  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:03 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • It appears I have struck a nerve with someone who will stoop to any level to insult me.
    This blog is for people who want to communicate about our city and its government.
    If all you have are ugly words and slanderous remarks about people you don't like, you are wasting space here. Your comments are useless.
    Please, go play elsewhere.
    Unless, that is, you would like to emerge from your cowardly lurking in the shadows of anonymity and reveal your true name.
    Isn't that what you've said?
    People in glass houses....

    By Blogger East Ender, at 2:15 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • OCT.6,2005


    ****REPORT CARD****

    Name Leadership Performance

    Jeff Gayhan D- F
    Mark Seabrook D- D-
    Larry Kochert C C
    Bill Schmidt A B+
    Donnie Blevins C- D-
    Steve Price B+ B+
    Jack Messer D- F
    Dan Coffey C C+
    Beverly Crump F F-

    James Garner F- F-
    Shane Gibson F F-
    Kay Garry D D-
    Marcey Wiseman F F
    Tony Toran F- F--
    Steve LaDuke D D-
    Chas Hunter D D-
    Adam Dickey D D
    John Rosenberger F F-
    Merle Harl D D-
    Ronnie Toran C- D

    Theresa Plaiss A B+
    Linda Berger A A
    Darlene McCoy A B+
    Brenda Egge F- F
    Barbara Sillings F D-
    Jeannie Freiberger B+ B-
    Dan Cannon D- F


    These are some of New Albany's finest elected Office Holders. As well as some Appointed Department heads.

    These people are paid with City and County Tax Dollars.

    These grades were based on Knowledge of Job, Ability, leadership and Job Performance.

    Over the last 6 weeks over 4,000 Taxpayers were contacted by phone and ask to rate Our Elected and Appointed Citizens of New Albany.

    These are the final results.

    Looks like several of you need to read "How To Do Your Job and Influence Taxpayers." Several of you are up for Re-Election next year.

    We wish you all the Best.


    Concern Taxpayer

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:45 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • hey CT where did you get your survey stats? What is the source, how was the survey designed at what confidence interval are these numbers based,who conducted the poll? was the sample stratified or demographically balanced, what questions were asked?

    or was this a speakoutloud designed survey

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:53 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • CT would have to spend, what, 300 hours to do all that work?

    Doesn't he have a job?

    If so, can we grade him?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:17 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • CT--You get an F------. What were the survey questions? What is the standard error on your survey? Again no plan. My momma always told me to BEWARE OF NED NEGATIVE. He'll drag you down every time.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:38 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • It is my opinion that Concerned Taxpayer fabricated the survey and results. All this negative stuff is bad for everyone, and this blog is the most negative I have seen. It's amazing to me that almost every elected official is a crook or incompetent person according to the majority of the bloggers. I don't know all the elected officials, but I know some, and the ones I know are good honest people that want to do a good job for the City and County. Quit thinking that everyone is out for themselves. It is just not true. I am done, and most of you people make me sick with your constant bashing of the administration. Grow up and get a life.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:44 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • Shirley,
    The Sewer Board is keeping tightlipped about the EPA and what they said/found/did on their inspection of our new sewer system; thus -- no new credits yet. Fifer said "They agree with us in principle". In legal ease, this statement is usually followed by a BUT. For example, your new sewer plant looks beautiful, BUT, it doesn't work. Or the check is in the mail. We have now hired, or he could be on contract from before, Steve Griest, to determine if the plant worked in a 1" (???)rain. We figured they would go for that 3" rain we had in May, but the EPA is looking at a 1" rain. Just not sure when that was.
    I, as a taxpayer, am concerned about fines being levied by the EPA, because (and even the Mayor agreed), this sewer plan we did was simply an expansion, not a fix of the inner city. EMC has started putting a disclaimer in their monthly sewer report that all maintenance performed by EMC in the inner city does not guarantee any I/I is being taken out. This City assured each person that the "Plan" would enable us to build more & EMC would take care of getting the I/I out of our lines in the inner city by maintenance -- which is why we are in trouble in the first place.
    Oh, well.
    By the way, get on the City's website and look under the City Clerk's page, pick sewers, pick a calendar at the bottom for 04/20/04 and up pop minutes about Stormwater and how much monies they need. And, you just keep reading through future minutes and you will NOT understand what happened here. $180,000 to $230,00 to $800,000. Stay tuned.

    And to whomever, Chrisitian Academy (owned by Northside Christian) does owe $39,000; question as to tap-in; question as to them obtaining a Certificate of Occupancy, and if so -- why? And why didn't we find out long before now how much they owed? We don't believe this $39,000 accrued overnight. We are fascinated as to how long this HAS been going on. To me, yes Garner's kids go to Northside, but the real issue is he was "Acting Building Commissioner" at that time. There's the rub. Hope this is informational to someone.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:14 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • Great Job Concern Taxpayers. I do very much agree with your grades. I personally would have went with a slideing scale myself. Alot of them downtown need to go.But that is what Elections are for.
    Some of the OTHER Elected Officials done well on the survey.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:19 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • maybe laura can design a survey to help CT get a read since she is supposedly an expert, she needs something to do besides waste our tax dollars as an institional research bureaucrat.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:12 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • Sorry for the mistake of Tom Cannon's name. He still did not get but a D&F. At least.. THE CONCERN TAXPAYER CAN AND WILL ADMIT TO making A MISTAKE.

    Have a Great Day.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:15 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • Looks like CT's on drugs. The only B+ Price gets is for pickin' and grinnin', so go to NA Confidential for the real story -


    The only plausible explanation for 3rd District CM Price’s abysmal voting record, one that grows more bizarrely predictable each month, is a strident and growing anti-intellectualism.

    A permanent state of distemper and incomprehension seems to have spiked CM Price’s landing gear, leaving a steady stream of knee-jerk “no” votes as the only way of him coping with a future direction for this and other cities of its size that he is ill equipped to understand, and detests all the more for his confusion.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:24 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • I guess the progressives are now writing again under anonymous.
    Good to know they enjoy all the great comments on this blog. Glad some one has the guts to stand up.
    I'll put my money on Concern Taxpayer anyday.
    Thank you Laura for such a Great Blog.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:36 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • Laura your Blog is doing a great service to New Albany.
    Thanks

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:44 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • more like disservice

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:56 AM, October 06, 2005  

  • I resent this Mayor hitting us with all the new fees. Mandated or not. We need to be more informed.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:17 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • We like our Councilman Price. Where were you when the last elections were held? Did you run for office and put your name out there? We don't remember you being there. We remember working our butts off for Garner; but we don't remember you. Why don't you keep your comments on your own blog? Nobody responds to you and your ramblings, haven't you noticed? We like this blog. We don't care what you think, because we see who comes out of the Mayor's office before Council meetings, so we feel your blog is really the Mayor's blog. All you are doing is alienating more and more people with your ramblings and opinions. Knowing the history of NA would (not could) make you stop and think before you write such things. Wish you could (not would) stick to the issues facing citizens, rather than pushing for Garner's re-election by name calling everyone in town who does care. Blind faith. Good luck.

    Laura, your new blog sight looks great. Keep up the good work, you will never know how much my family appreciates what you are doing.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:23 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • STORMWATER PLAN ????

    I did look through the Sewer Board Minutes on the internet as some one
    pointed out. Yes-- they do mention costs of $181,000 to $200,000 for
    the project.

    WHY IN THE WORLD DOES THE MAYOR HAVE TO HAVE $ 800,000?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:53 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • That seems to mimic the county's path. Around $200k in the early planning stages with no charge to residents.

    Since the federal deadline for rural areas is much further off than it is for urban areas who have more immediate drainage concerns due to the higher density of built environments, it'll be interesting to see how the county responds when they actually begin the process of formulating a long term plan (which the city is already doing because of its much earlier deadline).

    Will their leaders purposefully ask critics and political opponents to join the commitee to try to make sure the process of determining fee structures is professional rather than political?

    If so, they'll have NA's model to follow.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:07 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • Yes. You are rite, Anonymous. We checked on sewer records too and the following show the stormwater fees:

    04/20/04; 05/03/04; 07/20/04; 08/03/04; 08/17/04; 03/01/05; 03/15/05; 04/05/05; 05/17/05; 07/05/05; and 07/19/05.

    What did happen here? The County has already passed all three of their ordinances they need without billing people outside of the city. Since the County has agreed in their ordinances to stop the flow of stormwater on any surrounding town or city, if that cheapens our load since we keep hearing the water is coming from the Knobs. Water runs downhill they keep saying. Where did the 800,000 figure you are talking about come from? Because they start out talking about around $180,000 and even then they couldn't figure out where to get the money. They talk about putting a $1.00 fee on everyone and now it is a $3.00 fee on residents and commercial has a fee and industrial has a fee and institutions have a fee. Wow!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:18 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • Passing an ordinance alone won't redirect water flow.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:22 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • Isn't that the truth!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:22 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger The New Albanian, at 4:12 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • LaDuke? are you saying temporary ocupancy fees and sewer tap fees are 20,000 each? How do we get to 39000 in past due sewer bills? i can not imagine how long this was going on. We don't know you. What do you do for the City? We don't have a grade for you because we don't know you.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:17 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • QUESTION ??? CHRISTIAN ACADEMY----

    Mr. LaDuke: What is the cost for the Certificate of Occupancy listed on the
    City Code?

    What is the cost for a Sewer Tap-in fee as listed on the books?

    Do we have a temporary Sewer Tap-in fee? Why would they issue a temporary tap-in permit? What is the cost of the Sewer tap-in for this size building?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:37 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • I am just now trying to understand what I am reading on this blog site.

    Was the Christian Academy allowed to tap in to our sewer system BEFORE they PAID THE PROPER FEE?

    If I build a house, can I tap in and then, pay later? Who issued the TAP-IN PERMIT?

    Where is our Sewer Board and their attroney? They keep crying that they don't have any money.
    Who is on that Sewer Board and are they paid to be on that Board?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:46 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • The sewer board is chaired by Mayor Garner himself, and he does recieve a salary. CM Larry Kochert, Bill Utz, CM Mark Seabrook, and Todd Soloman round out the members of the Sewer Board. Greg Fifer is the Attorney.
    In my opinion, it is a conflict of interest for City Council members to sit on another Board or Commission which has business come before the Council for action.
    As for Mr. LaDuke, so far I know he sits on the Building Commission, Flood Control Board, Planning Commission, and Board of Works.

    By Blogger East Ender, at 6:30 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • The cost of a sewer tap in ain't no 39,000. Even our family knows that.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:12 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • Does anybody know how many buildings they are building out there at this location? If the sewer board is collecting that kind of money and they keep saying they don't have any money, i dunno. What did they say at that public hearing, they could only get to 5 months of data on their books? And they want more money from all of us? Is there something wrong here? i probbly shouldn't say that, but how do you get the answers?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:16 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • its harvest homecoming, cant we give the new albany witch trials just a few days break?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:55 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • how is this blog messing up your harvest home coming? Witch hunt in NA. Well, it is almost Halloween time. Let's have some fun with that.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:24 PM, October 06, 2005  

  • Mr. Laduke

    You are very quick to defend the Mayor. I realize he is your Boss. So why not complete the questions given to you?
    Tap in fees and etc.
    It seems certain people are only required to follow certain procedures and laws. And others are not required! I would like to know why?
    Several issues need to be addressed. And we are not getting answers. Only partial statements. Never a complete answer. Usually followed with an "I don't know" answer and I'll get back with you on it.
    Again Mr. Laduke did dance with us and avoid answering the questions.
    As far as the grades Mr. Laduke and others recieved. I feel they were fair and honest. Tells you Steve you got alot of work to do. As well as other elected Officials and others.

    In this City it is who you know and how much you have in your wallet.

    Alot of people are reading this Blog. And don't think for one minute the people of New Albany are not starting to see what is truly going on here.
    I along with many readers of your Blog enjoy all the many comments, articles, views and informing information.
    I do have the utmost Respect for Concern Taxpayer. Who ever they are. Concern Taxpayer is what real guts and courage is all about.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:55 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • Would someone please explain the $39,000.00 SEWER BILL? I have read nothing in the paper about this issue.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:04 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • The CJ called Council members about this issue. We are not sure why they did not print the story. the lady on the sewer board, kelly, only brings in past due sewer bills and reports on them. What about the $39,000?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:39 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • The people on here could care less about what actually happend, Mr. LaDuke. They only care about barking for Councilmembers Schmidt and Price. They could care less about actually focusing on a "problem" rather than a particular politician. I think you've wasted your time here.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:00 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • steve how much are sewer tap-ins for each building that gets it up to 39,000? thank you

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:01 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • how do you get that focusing on a 39000 bill is attacking a politician? To be progressive, you shore are a backwards sort of type. anyway, our family wants to know the answers to the ?s.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:04 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • Mayor Garner is taking Bids on Sanitation.
    I would rather have my $3.00-$6.00 fees to go on helping Sanitation workers keep their jobs.

    Damn You James! Or should I just call you "Jimmy" like the rest of us little people call you.
    I do support the Sanitation Dept. Employees.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:09 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • Mr. Laduke:

    What boards do you sit on?
    And are you paid by the Taxpayers?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:15 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • As a person who tries to attend sewer board meetings, but missed this last one about this subject, I was surprised to RECEIVE calls from Council members wanting to know what this Christian Academy business was about. They were upset that the CJ was calling. I had to make calls myself. Watching this unfold here, and waiting for answers myself, I cannot contain myself about the cheap shots towards Mr. Price and Mr. Schmidt. These two do not sit on the sewer board and have no idea what is going on here. There are two council members on the sewer board, but you got the wrong two. Why do you mention two that don't sit on the sewer board that can't answer these citizens questions directly, anon? Why would you think we won't listen to an answer, as if we are going to get one? Stepping on toes, are they? This is a forum for us to get answers to our questions; if you don't have any questions -- or need any answers -- why do you feel the need to comment? (Oh, never mind, you must feel the need to protect someone.) We could have someone call the CJ (Ben Hershberg) and see what was reported to him about what is going on.

    Steve, I don't really know you, so this is not directed to you, just the anonymous blurb. We know whom each other are, but that's all. I don't even know you well enough or would try to grade anyone downtown at this point in time.

    At this point in time, I have discovered who did attend the meetings and am trying to get a duplicate of the tape recording.
    Thanks, Laura, for letting me air my thoughts (again)!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:29 AM, October 07, 2005  

  • Again Mr. LaDuke, my question are you paid to sit on these boards out of taxpayers money? A Very simple yes or no answer.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:27 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • Having just spoken with Ben Hershberg of the Courier-Journal, he said is is still trying to understand this situation. He hopes I will give you his number so you may contact him. His telephone number at the CJ is 949-4032. Thanks for Laura, for allowing me to forward this info on to all concerned taxpayers.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:02 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • Thanks, Steve. Appreciate that. We are looking up those laws, as we speak. To the other citizens/taxpayers -- just spoke with Ben Hershberg at the Courier Journal and he asked that I please put his telephone number out there. He is STILL trying to unravel this himself. His telephone number, per his directions, are 949-4032. And, Steve, we'll trying to find those tap-in costs. We think we know where to look; Gosh knows we don't want to appear as know it alls! Take care. Happy Harvest Homecoming to all downtown.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:14 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • Steve, the laws are under City Ordinances, Sewers, Section 51.01. I think I'll let them read that section, and see if they can determine "fees". Thanks for your help, input and a direction for citizens to take.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:30 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • This is the breakdown we can track, a little. Based upon the School's requests: they have 400 highschool students (which require more credits); they have estimated 700 Elementary students; and they were charged a $20,000 DRAINAGE FEE. (And there is something in there we can't charge more than 20,000, either for credits or for drainage -- couldn't tell for sure). These particular fees were submitted to the Sewage Works Office at City Hall on May 19, 2005. What month is this? The total amount due is $39,341. Also, the square footage of their roof is "140,852" sq ft and parking lot is "265,000" sq ft. (That's what DRAINAGE was based on.) That must be why they are saying they are not past due delinquent sewer bills. Thanks for directions to the info. Still, if the monies are past due, especially this DRAINAGE FEE, which Council is worried about making sure the SWAC collects it... Gotta think about this one. Geez Louise.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:09 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • Mr. La Duke and Yvonne,
    Thank you for having a reasonable discourse about an issue, and finding answers to questions!!!!
    That is what I have meant for this blog to be. It is people like anon who make this a political thing.
    I have no opinion on the "grading" system that Concern Taxpayer came up with, but opinions are allowed here about the way our city is being Governed.
    There are many, many issues to dissect, so I appreciate the time and energy you both give to making that happen.

    By Blogger East Ender, at 4:28 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • There are still unanswered questions regarding this issue. If they are just now paying what are really their "drainge" and "tap-in" fees, when does their sewer and trash billing get started with only temporary occupancy permits? Just questions the rest of us want answered, seeing we have no money! Most Developers start their sewers and pay tap-ins because they use water on the job-site.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:43 PM, October 07, 2005  

  • Mr. LaDuke -
    I sincerely appreciate your comments here, and hope we can keep you around for future issues.
    This blog is not intended to spread mis-truths and/or outright lies. It is for finding the truth about what is happening to our City.
    I believe most people are afraid of what the future holds, and fear can easily turn to anger when folks think no one is listening to them or cares what they think.
    My purpose remains to inform.

    Laura Oates

    By Blogger East Ender, at 1:06 AM, October 08, 2005  

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